Latest update issue.

[Skalarki]

Hi

I think it is related to latest update. But simply is not possible to edit any pcb layout. Tracks are constrained to something, I have no idea where. I can't move end of the track to the position. Not possible to move corners, etc. What happen please. Software can't be used like that.

Where I can get previous version from 8.13 I think? All was perfect there.

Edit:
I have installed back 8.13 version and all works perfect.

[David]

Hi,

The Manual routing rules have been amended to force routes to be moved at 45 degrees or Hoz / Vert. If you are trying to drag a trace with Trace Angle Lock turned on, it will only allow tracks to be moved where they adhere to a 45 degree / Hoz or Vert. The reason for this is to prevent single segments breaking up in to point segments (a single length of track contains multiple unwanted nodes). Also note that if you have a large Grid snap, the track may not be able to be moved without breaking the DRC rules. Try lowering the grid snap?

CTRL+K turns Trace Angle Lock off which will revert to the 'old way'. There is a case to re-enable the Trace Angle Lock icon.

Regards,
Dave.

[DaUnderdoug]

Hi David,

In relation to your remark re single lengths of tracks containing multiple unwanted nodes (which in my own experience are often detritus from track segments which I've used on a construction basis prior to deletion), I notice that a pcb tidy layout operation no longer removes these intermediate nodes even though the tracks where they are located are straight point-to-point segments where the intermediates (lying perfectly on a straight line) used to be removed by this operation (something I found useful to increase clarity when viewing). Is this feature of the Ares module now intentionally removed? Or is there a way of making it happen through another command?

btw can another cursor be added, please? i.e. a larger X that one can use when routing diagonals (I know that trace angle lock is meant to render this unnecessary but it'd be a nice-to-have).

Many thanks in advance and kind regards,

Douglas

[Loveny]

I'll add my disappointment to this, manual editing has suddenly become more difficult and frustrating. I want to be able to move vias/tracks freely, and clean up afterwards. I don't want to have to keep switching between trace lock on and off.

Actually, it doesn't matter whether I have trace lock on or off, I can't always drag a via. Sometimes it simply refuses to move and I end up deleting track and re-laying. Really really annoying!

[Iain]

I appreciate that this is a behaviour change so let me first explain the reasons for prioritising 45/90 routes during edits:

1) It's consistent with route placement being 45/90 constrained and the Trace Angle Lock command. Easily disabled/toggled on CTRL+K if necessary.
2) Typically results in fewer correcting segments, small segments and corners.
3) Enables segment dragging and smarter route edits. Routes will tend to degenerate into 'point pulling' if edited with arbitrary angled segments.

anyAngleRouteEditing.png (52.63 KiB) Viewed 1142 times

4) Enables route corner changing via the mitre command from 45 chamfer to curve and vice versa (forthcoming in v8.15).
5) Route 'pushing' and 'ripple back' will produce more sensible results. Relevant to push n' shove which is planned for v8.16.

I totally understand that we may not have got it quite right in the first release, in particular with the dragging of vias rather than the editing of route segments. Via drag is of course also affected a lot by your snap settings (View Menu or Fnc keys). The smaller the snap, the easier to find a conforming route during edit.

I know that several improvements were introduced with v8.14 SP1 and I'm not aware of any breaking cases since then. So, can you confirm first that you are using v8.14 SP1 ?

If anyone finds use cases which don't work (or are just plain annoying!) please do let us know. If you are able to supply a board (feel free to delete half of it if needed) with, for example, a via that can't be dragged that will be very helpful for the dev team. What should happen if a via cannot be dragged maintaining 45/90 is that it fall backs to the old behaviour and any angle tracks are created.

support @ labcenter.com

Thanks.

[Loveny]

Thanks for the explanation, and yes I am using 8.14 SP1. I can probably live with having to toggle trace lock on/off, although not ideal. As others have mentioned, there do seem to be some problems with the change, in particular not being able to move a via (with no indication what the problem is). I also have the problem where moving a track segment sometimes disconnects the track from a pad (not necessarily directly connected either, could be far away).

I would have expected the trace lock to only apply when placing tracks (that's how it used to be?). It seems unlikely that when editing it would always be possible to keep the tracks at 45 degrees. Indeed there are times when moving a track corner is desirable to change the angle, but that doesn't mean I want the trace lock off! I see the trace lock as a helper, not a design rule check.

[Iain]

OK - appreciate the feedback. Looks like there are still issues to look at with SP1 in this respect.

1) If a via can't be moved (and it's not related to snap) then that's a bug. The intended behaviour is to move the via maintaining L45 where possible and to fall back to free format movement if not possible.

2) If a track edit disconnects from a pad then that's a bug. Not certain if it's related to TAL editing changes but a bug nonetheless.

We'll get on the case and have another go at trying to reproduce both issues here. It's tricky because it will depend on variables such as the topology and density of your board, the current snap setting, the design rules in effect and so on. If you (anyone!) comes across either situation again I'd be very grateful if you could quickly 'save as' and either mail to support @ labcenter.com or private message here so we can test and present the breaking case to dev team.

Thanks.

[Iain]

Short update.

We've identified two use cases where via dragging isn't possible in a particular direction with trace angle lock on. In both cases it works as it used to (point pulling) with trace angle lock turned off (CTRL+K).

We agree with the OP that this should work without user thought / keyboard toggling and dev work will begin shortly to improve the behaviour in these cases.

It won't make SP2 because that's imminent but, depending on time to implement, we'll either push an SP3 when the work completes or roll into the 8.15 point release.

[DaUnderdoug]

Further to my post (quoted below) I observe that 8.14 SP1 (32850) will permit manual dragging of these 'detritus' intermediate nodes which are then promptly merged if dragged along the straight line upon which they lie. Whilst I appreciate this goes a long way for my needs, is the automatic tidy of these nodes still intentionally removed? And is there a way of restoring this functionality?

Many thanks in advance and kind regards,

Douglas

Hi David,

In relation to your remark re single lengths of tracks containing multiple unwanted nodes (which in my own experience are often detritus from track segments which I've used on a construction basis prior to deletion), I notice that a pcb tidy layout operation no longer removes these intermediate nodes even though the tracks where they are located are straight point-to-point segments where the intermediates (lying perfectly on a straight line) used to be removed by this operation (something I found useful to increase clarity when viewing). Is this feature of the Ares module now intentionally removed? Or is there a way of making it happen through another command?

btw can another cursor be added, please? i.e. a larger X that one can use when routing diagonals (I know that trace angle lock is meant to render this unnecessary but it'd be a nice-to-have).

Many thanks in advance and kind regards,

Douglas

[David]

Hi Douglas,

I believe that the nodes that are left behind after a tidy, should have been removed. I have created a case and added it to the list for either Sp3 or 8.15. Thanks.

Regards,
Dave.

[DaUnderdoug]

Thanks David,

There's no rush (or if there is, I can't think why). I've just installed SP2 and seen that the situation is still the same.

Many thanks once again.

Kind regards,

Douglas

[DaUnderdoug]

Hi David,

Ditto for SP3

Kind regards,

Douglas